The Formation & Evolution of the American Constitution. Madison James
to the National Legislature of the quantum, would excite greater opposition than any sum that would be actually necessary or proper.
Mr. Sherman contended for referring both the quantum and the payment of it to the State Legislatures.
Mr. Wilson was against fixing the compensation as circumstances would change and call for a change of the amount. He thought it of great moment that the members of the National Government should be left as independent as possible of the State Governments in all respects.
Mr. Madison concurred in the necessity of preserving the compensations for the National Government independent on the State Governments but at the same time approved of fixing them by the Constitution, which might be done by taking a standard which wouldnot vary with circumstances. He disliked particularly the policy suggested by Mr. Williamson of leaving the members from the poor States beyond the Mountains, to the precarious & parsimonious support of their constituents. If the Western States hereafter arising should be admitted into the Union, they ought to be considered as equals & as brethren. If their representatives were to be associated in the Common Councils, it was of common concern that such provisions should be made as would invite the most capable and respectable characters into the service.
Mr. Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from fixing the wages. He was strenuous against making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Government. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the people — & the Governments of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the General Government.
Mr. Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1st branch "be ascertained by the National Legislature," and be paid out of the National Treasury.
Mr. Madison, thought the members of the Legislature too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It would be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.
On this question Mass. no. Connecticut no. N. Y. divd N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. no. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. divd.
On the question for striking out "National Treasury" as moved by Mr. Elseworth.
Mr. Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Governments & the people. The former would be the rivals of the General Government. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.
Mr. Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Governments they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Government such powers because we could not trust you. Will they adopt it, and without the approbation it is a nullity.2
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut ay. N. Y. divd. N. J. no. Pennsylvania no. Del. no. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. divd.3
On a question for substituting "adequate compensation" in place of "fixt stipends" it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of fixing the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.
It was then moved by Mr. Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit "adequate compensation to be paid out of the National Treasury." It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The President refered the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. Maryland N. C. S. C. — ay. — N. Y. Pennsylvania Virginia Geo. no. — Mass. divided. The question on the sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.
Col. Mason moved to insert "twenty-five years of age as a qualification for the members of the 1st branch." He thought it absurd that a man today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself, and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Congress had proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their own education.
Mr. Wilson was against abridging the rights of election in any shape. It was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating youth than age, where the requisite qualifications were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The present Mr. Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.
On the question for inserting "25 years of age"
Massachusetts no. Connecticut ay. N. Y. divd. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania no. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
Mr. Ghorum moved to strike out the last member of the 3 Resol: concerning ineligibility of members of the 1st branch to office during the term of their membership & for one year after. He considered it as unnecessary & injurious. It was true abuses had been displayed in G. B. but no one could say how far they might have contributed to preserve the due influence of the Government nor what might have ensued in case the contrary theory had been tried.
Mr. Butler opposed it. This precaution against intrigue was necessary. He appealed to the example of G. B. where men got into Parliament that they might get offices for themselves or their friends. This was the source of the corruption that ruined their Government.
Mr. King, thought we were refining too much. Such a restriction on the members would discourage merit. It would also give a pretext to the Executive for bad appointments, as he might always plead this as a bar to the choice he wished to have made.
Mr. Wilson was against fettering elections, and discouraging merit. He suggested also the fatal consequence in time of war, of rendering perhaps the best Commanders ineligible; appealing to our situation during the late war, and indirectly leading to a recollection of the appointment of the Commander in Chief out of Congress.4
Col. Mason was for shutting the door at all events against corruption. He enlarged on the venality and abuses in this particular in G. Britain: and alluded to the multiplicity of foreign Embassies by Congress. The disqualification he regarded as a corner stone in the fabric.
Col. Hamilton, there are inconveniences on both sides. We must take man as we find him, and if we expect him to serve the public must interest his passions in doing so. A reliance on pure patriotism had been the source of many of our errors. He thought the remark of Mr. Ghorum a just one. It was impossible to say what would be the effect in G. B. of such a reform as had been urged. It was known that one of the ablest politicians (Mr. Hume) had pronounced all that influence on the side of the crown, which went under the name of corruption, an essential part of the weight which maintained the equilibrium of the Constitution.
On Mr. Ghorum's Motion for striking out "ineligibility,"
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut no. N. Y. divd. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania divd. Del. divd. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Georgia ay.
Adjourned.
1 "Mr. Gorham is a merchant in Boston, high in reputation, and much in the esteem of his country-men. He is a man of very good sense, but not much improved in his education. He is eloquent and easy in public debate, but has nothing fashionable or elegant in his style; — all he aims at is to convince,