The Great Debate That Made the U.S. Constitution. Madison James
no hereditary distinctions among us, we were destitute of the essential materials for such an innovation.
On the question for the triennial election of the 1st branch
Mass. no. (Mr. King ay.) Mr. Ghorum wavering. Connecticut no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. ay.
The words requiring members of the 1st branch to be of the age of — — years were struck out Maryland alone no. The words "liberal compensation for members," being considered Mr. Madison moves to insert the words, "& fixt." He observed that it would be improper to leave the members of the National legislature to be provided for by the State Legislations, because it would create an improper dependence; and to leave them to regulate their own wages, was an indecent thing, and might in time prove a dangerous one. He thought wheat or some other article of which the average price throughout a reasonable period preceding might be settled in some convenient mode, would form a proper standard.
Col. Mason seconded the motion; adding that it would be improper for other reasons to leave the wages to be regulated by the States. 1. the different States would make different provision for their representatives, and an inequality would be felt among them, whereas he thought they ought to be in all respects equal. 2. the parsimony of the States might reduce the provision so low that as had already happened in choosing delegates to Congress, the question would be not who were most fit to be chosen, but who were most willing to serve.
On the question for inserting the words, "and fixt"
Massachusetts no. Connecticut no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.
Doctor Franklyn said he approved of the amendment just made for rendering the salaries as fixed as possible; but disliked the word "liberal." He would prefer the word moderate if it was necessary to substitute any other. He remarked the tendency of abuses in every case, to grow of themselves when once begun, and related very pleasantly the progression in ecclesiastical benefices, from the first departure from the gratuitous provision for the Apostles, to the establishment of the papal system. The word "liberal" was struck out nem con.
On the motion of Mr. Pierce, that the wages should be paid out of the National Treasury,
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. G. ay.
Question on the clause relating to term of service & compensation of 1st branch,
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut no. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.
On a question for striking out the "ineligibility of members of the National Legis: to State offices,"
Massachusetts divd. Connecticut ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Pennsylvania no. Del. no. Maryland divd. Virginia no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
On the question for agreeing to the clause as amended,
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut no. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
On a question for making members of the National Legislature ineligible to any office under the National Government for the term of 3 years after ceasing to be members,
Massachusetts no. Connecticut no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. Pennsylvania no. Del. no. Maryland ay. Virginia no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.
On the question for such ineligibility for one year,
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland divd. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
On question moved by Mr. Pinckney, for striking out "incapable of re-election into 1st branch of the National Legisl. for — — years, and subject to recall" agd. to nem. con.
On question for striking out from the Resol: 5 the words requiring members of the Senatorial branch to be of the age of — — years at least
Massachusetts no. Connecticut ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. no. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. divd. S. C. no. Geo. divd.
On the question for filling the blank with 30 years as the qualification; it was agreed to,
Massachusetts ay. Connecticut no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. Pennsylvania ay. Del. no. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
Mr. Spaight moved to fill the blank for the duration of the appointments to the 2d branch of the National Legislature with the words "7 years."
Mr. Sherman, thought 7 years too long. He grounded his opposition he said on the principle that if they did their duty well, they would be reelected. And if they acted amiss, an earlier opportunity should be allowed for getting rid of them. He preferred 5 years which would be between the terms of the 1st branch & of the executive.
Mr. Pierce proposed 3 years. 7 years would raise an alarm. Great mischiefs had arisen in England from their septennial Act which was reprobated by most of their patriotic Statesmen.
Mr. Randolph was for the term of 7 years. The democratic licentiousness of the State Legislatures proved the necessity of a firm Senate. The object of this 2d branch is to controul the democratic branch of the National Legislature. If it be not a firm body, the other branch being more numerous, and coming immediately from the people, will overwhelm it. The Senate of Maryland constituted on like principles had been scarcely able to stem the popular torrent. No mischief can be apprehended, as the concurrence of the other branch, and in some measure, of the Executive, will in all cases be necessary. A firmness & independence may be the more necessary also in this branch, as it ought to guard the Constitution against encroachments of the Executive who will be apt to form combinations with the demagogues of the popular branch.
Mr. Madison, considered 7 years as a term by no means too long. What we wished was to give to the Government that stability which was every where called for, and which the Enemies of the Republican form alledged to be inconsistent with its nature. He was not afraid of giving too much stability by the term of Seven years. His fear was that the popular branch would still be too great an overmatch for it. It was to be much lamented that we had so little direct experience to guide us. The Constitution of Maryland was the only one that bore any analogy to this part of the plan. In no instance had the Senate of Maryland created just suspicions of danger from it. In some instances perhaps it may have erred by yielding to the H. of Delegates. In every instance of their opposition to the measures of the H. of D. they had had with them the suffrages of the most enlightened and impartial people of the other States as well as of their own. In the States where the Senates, were chosen in the same manner as the other branches, of the Legislature, and held their seats for 4 years, the institution was found to be no check whatever against the instabilities of the other branches. He conceived it to be of great importance that a stable & firm Government, organized in the republican form should be held out to the people. If this be not done, and the people be left to judge of this species of Government by the operations of the defective systems under which they now live, it is much to be feared the time is not distant when, in universal disgust, they will renounce the blessing which they have purchased at so dear a rate, and be ready for any change that may be proposed to them.
On the question for "seven years" as the term for the 2d branch
Massachusetts divided. (Mr. King, Mr. Ghorum ay, Mr. Gerry, Mr. Strong, no) Connecticut no. N. Y. divd N. J. ay. Pennsylvania ay. Del. ay. Maryland ay. Virginia ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
Mr. Butler and Mr. Rutlidge proposed that the members of the 2d branch should be entitled to no salary or compensation for their services. On the question,3 —
Massachusetts divd. Connecticut ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P. no. Del. ay. Maryland no. Virginia no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.
It was then moved & agreed that the clauses respecting the stipends & ineligibility of the 2d branch be the same as, of the 1st branch: —